Tuesday, December 4, 2012

Reasons for May Issue

Know how it's really, really hard to get a New York City Carry permit?

Turns your you're wrong.

Had a"fascinating" conversation with Mr. A.    The topic went to May Issue versus Shall Issue.

At first he seemed sensible, going on about how most of the nation was Shall Issue and the subject seemed settled.  Sure if you happen to live in the 40 states with Shall Issue...

But most of the country has migrated to shall-issue over the last 15 years. Isn't this kinda an old, mostly solved issue?

Those of you that have heard these Mr. A stories know the other shoe will drop.  Well first he claimed it was all by the courts, when in reality CCW was by legislature.

Whatever, minor.  But then then I pointed  when I pointed out how a regular Joe can't get a permit in  NYC, Boston, San Fran, LA, New Jersey, or Hawaii (for an incomplete list).  He challenged me.

And this shows a couple interesting things.

1) It's hard to get an "unbiased" source showing how May Issue works. 

Mr. A complained and wanted non "right wing" sources on this.

And what I found was more indirect. Yes I have personal experience living in NY and NJ to draw on.  And know people who live in Massachusetts, but getting the data to show it is hard.

Sure there's Emily Miller's tale of how hard it is to get a gun (legally) in DC, but that's not carry.

And there's the obvious factor that in strict May Issue areas only celebrities and the rich can get permits.

The NYPD charges a nonrefundable $340 to file an application for a gun permit and between $94 and $106 for the collection of fingerprints, even before a background check is begun.
Gun permits aren't easy to get.
"The NYPD is extremely thorough in their investigation," said divorce lawyer to the stars Raoul Felder, who also has a permit to carry. "In other states, you fill out a form, swear you are not a lunatic and you get it."

Easy if you got connections!  But that doesn't directly show how much denial there is.  Sure it obliquity points out that the permits aren't easy to get, and yet celebrities keep getting them.  And  over 300 bucks for the chance to get a permit?  Screw you poor people!

And there's that the Sullivan Law itself says

To qualify under New York's licensing laws, the applicant has to show “a special need for self protection distinguishable from that of the general community or of persons engaged in the same profession.” 

That struck. That directly says some people are above the "general community".
But what gets to me is that it was hard to find data showing that, yeah,  May Issue does deny people their rights.

This is despite, on the face, it being obvious.  The only point of May Issue is to empower the police to deny permits to people who are not prohibited persons.  Therefore May Issue only acts as a restrictive agency or as de facto Shall Issue.

2) Mr. A thinks May Issue favoritism is an NRA conspiracy.

Needless to say, Mr A didn't believe it. Sure celebrities can get gun permits in NYC, and sure those permits are very expensive and selective, but that doesn't mean the police will deny you if you're a normal guy.

 He could not conceive of a "recorded, proven pattern of people being unreasonably and/or illegally denied CCW permit."

Note that under May Issue such a pattern would be legal. Which is.. better?  It's an interesting blindspot.  He doesn't see giving the police such a power as inviting abuse.Thus he doesn't see abuse under May Issue happening.  

Mind, this is also a guy who immediately before this was complaining about how the Politicians, Police, and Justice System conspire to arrest blacks in greater numbers for voter suppression.  

 So he is someone that knows his conspiracy theories when he criticizes the idea that May-Issue States frivolously deny permits:

Honestly, it sounds like the sorta thing the NRA makes up from a couple anecdotes and mostly whole cloth
Get that?  You wanna get a carry permit in NYC or San Fran?  You can! 

Massachusetts residents you don't need to consult this map to make sure you'll have to move before you can get a permit. (Link here) Nope! It's all a clever ruse.

Anyone who says otherwise is part of the NRA conspiracy.  Consider the enormity of such a conspiracy.   Every gun owner in an anti-gun state or who had ever been in an anti-gun state would have to have been in on it.

He thinks that Regular Jane gun owner in Boston can get a carry permit, but instead chooses not to in order to be part of the conspiracy.

But due to a lack of exposure and a regrettable lack of easy evidence, he's able to support this delusion. Because hey, only right wing gun owners complain about it.  And most of them don't even live in those states.

3) Mr. A has scary views on police power.

Now one wonders if he'd even support May-Issue.  Even absent any abuse, the only purpose would be to deny rights to those without due process.   So does he support May-Issue?

Of course!
"May Issue is a pretty reasonable position."

Now square that with the above where he says CCW is  "mostly solved" issue. An why does he think the police should have the power to deny a right?  Well he went into the "people who have committed violent crimes" (Can't getone under Shall Issue) and "people who have serious, long term mental disorders" (again see Shall Issue).

But then he went with a real gem.  Something that yes,  Shall Issue would not cover:

"because you're a scumbag and everyone knows it" is a very good reason, but rarely one that can be legislated into effect
Get that?

Your rights can and should be abridged if "everyone knows" you're a scumbag. Or at least the police know. They don't even have to prove it in a court of law.

Again, not just anti gun.


Weer'd Beard said...

WOW! I guess it was all a bad dream!!!

To think all that work I did, and all that harassment was just in my head!

Odd that he speaks of "Conspiracy" the same way conspiracy theorists who believe Man has never walked on the moon, or that the US Government was behind the 9-11 attacks, or Lee Oswald was a CIA plant....

Make sure to ask him about those Conspiracies too!

The Jack said...

Ignorance is a powerful shield. So's doublethink.

Given he thinks that the high rate of Black incarceration is part of a conspiracy to depress minority voting...

Course funny that he trusts those very same police to have discretionary powers to pick and choose who can carry.